Where is the development site?

I have some ranting and a question to get off my chest.

I’m looking for bug trackers, public source code repository and mailing lists, but find none. Where does one send patches? You already have the project registered on SourceForge, why not use it?

Using a forum for all communication is the worst possible scenario. Forums are OK for Counter Strike clans and less engaged end users, but as a member of several other free software projects I think Panda3D needs a real project site with mailing lists and trackers.

The current setup highly discourages any type of developer participation and nullifies any community feel. See how the Blender3D project progressed after they made it free, not only by license but also with community support.

Does the license allow a sourcecode branch and redistribution via a new project?

…thought the sourceforge page tells you that panda uses the sourceforge only for the CVS-repo but it’s using it after all =)

Check out http://www.crystalspace3d.org/.

THAT is what a free software community looks like. Pity the engine itself is a mess.

jaeger the panda3d licenses i think is actually gpl compatible now im not sure ill have to have the fsf look at it to find out for sure.

But here is what you can,t do.

  1. You can’t use the disney name in any way
  2. You cant change the licenses
  3. You have to provide a copy of the licenses if you redistribute the engine or game
  4. You have to identify yourself as the originator of the modifications of any source code changes.
  5. You have to document any changes made to the source code
  6. You have to forwarded any changes of source code to Panda.Project@Disney.com

And i think if you fork panda3d you can rename it to something else or you have to rename it to something else im to tired to reread the license again.

thats it.

You can fork it you can strip it you can sell it you can do what every you want except them 6 things.

I was thinking of forking this project. Now i am not a very good python programmer i was just going to apply what ever changes that panda3d makes in the cvs when they make them rewrite all the examples because half of them don’t work and start cleaning up the docs.

And set up a proper development site.

Yes yes, I know the license very well. However, it is obvious (from the lack of response on more advanced, low-level questions) that the current development model isn’t working as well as it could.

I’ve been monitoring the traffic on other engine mailing lists (yes, not forums) and not only are they more active, but it gives the users a chance to talk directly to the developers.
So far I’ve seen nobody in these forums with sufficient C++ skills to tackle some of the bug and C+±specific issues reply to any post. In fact, I’ve seen no developers at all here.

However, the fork was an idea that popped up in my head too. A site with working mailing lists, SVN and trackers could be easily setup using sourceforge (or whatever).
I can see only two problems with this:

  1. getting enough new developers to join the fork to make it worth while
  2. avoiding that the forks differ so much that they are incompatible

After watching this forum for some time now I’ve decided to move on. It’s obvious that neither disney nor etc are interrested in a community, they made it for their needs specifically, not for general use.
My suggestion is that you join in the effort to make Python bindings for some other engine or accept the slow development rate and community response of Panda3D.

Jaeger, please stop insulting people…

Panda3D development might not be what it COULD be, but its working. The way P3D is developed makes SURE to have a consistent user interface, a clear programming style and thus a (most of the time) consistent way to do things.

Devs that found bugs are encouraged to post their knowledge or send a mail to the devs.

We have C+±Guys here, but why use it? Patches can be Python-based too for many things. And most of the time its enough to point the devs to the problems.

Never forget… Panda3D is not a community-invented product. I for my part are heavy that the devs fix the things we find and implement new features THEY need.

When its going to happen that Panda3D gets more “free” devs (not ETC or Disney) that are highly active with the development of Panda3D itself, there might be some things that could be changed - but I doubt it that two big dev partners just change everything because a propably-dev starts crying because of a few problems while transmitting code or bug fixes.

Panda3D community isn’t as big as other communities are - thus we are more like a big family. - The way you try to get attention (with this thread) isn’t the best to become comfortable with a new family member… :confused:

Regards, Bigfoot29

Edit: I didn’t read your post till the end before I do write that post. - So one or two additions:
In case you dislike the way things are done here, feel free to leave. Due to the fact that you can develop P3D even today as free project can be seen in the P3D-Port to MacOS X.

I like the engine, and working with it thus far has been a very enlightening experience for me, but there are things that are broken in the manual, and the newbie’s guide is several versions out of date, and so on.

If there were a cleaner, more easily accessible system for developers to maintain, modify, and develop the code, that would be a big hook. Updating the gallery, creating a few small engine demos (not tutorials, but maybe something like irrlicht’s demo has), and maybe implementing a browser-based IRC widget would help as well.

The engine is there, and the seeds of a strong community are in place. What’s needed now is the hook, stability, and major convenience that sites like Blender3D, Crystal Space, and Ogre maintain. Put those tools in place and decide on a method to structure development process (e.g. who gets to go through all the suggestions and changes to code and decide what goes and stays.) Once that’s done, start aggressively advertising, maybe putting out some machinima on youtube, do the whole viral marketing thing, and heavily abuse the Disney advantage until you get a couple dozen core engine dev / volunteers.

Those volunteer developers are basically all that significantly separates Panda from the big players (CS, OGRE, Blender) . And it would be awesome to see 2-3000 active members posting daily, even if they’re 90% “I r new to teh gaming seen, kan u help me LOL !” and whatnot. Python might make alot of those games possible, where c++ can just as easily crush a newbie programmer/game designer.

Anyway, just rambling. Definitely not complaining, because the site and Panda engine are great, but they could be more, and if shooting out ideas might help, then at least I’ll try :slight_smile:

Well, IPKnightly, you obviously took my comments as a personal attack on your “eliteness”, that was not my intension at all.
It seems, however, that you did not fully understand what I wrote. It must be my broken english, mind you it’s not my native language.

Since Panda3D is written in C++ it is only natural that discussing bugs in the source code, or reading it to gain better understanding, will include discussing C++. I don’t see how you could have misinterpreted my post as a drive towards discussing general C++ programming.

My problem is the lack of participation of the developers who can explain details and respond to issues regarding the actual engine and not the Python API that you are referring to. I think this would be a general concern for all users who better want to understand and possibly improvie the engine.

Also, bigfoot29, I get what you’re saying: you get what you pay for, basically, and I agree. I don’t see pointing at obvious flaws as being insulting.
However, this post has gotten responses which is more than I can say for my API-related threads. It has also raised some interresting issues.

In any case, consider the matter closed, I will certainly not bother this family with my problems any more. Although, I will remain on IRC to continue helping people with their Python and Panda3D related problems.

Ooka, the manual is a WIKI, so everybody is invited to help keeping it up-to-date.
an IRC channel is there and for folks needing an web based IRC client: thats also there - but not known by all. A search here will help you. Its hidden because it creates quite a bunch of webserver load. :wink:

The Projects website I want to open is dedicated to the fact that many things are going a slower pace here. - For the sake of useable code. :slight_smile:

The Panda3D userbase is growing slowly but steadily… we need to change things - and we (community) know that. But starting a riot doesn’t help at all. Even when Panda3D is for rapid prototyping, its development has its own speed. Get to that pace and you will be fine. Maybe we can speed that up, but especcially the IRC thing is something I wonder where it can help. Million things are said in IRC, but never cought for other people to be used.
Having not too much hyper-modern communication tools does have its advantages too. :wink:

I personally like your way of telling things a bit better than other folks saying what they think… we are proud when community can grow, but we want to grow to health - we want to grow in a way that HELPS Panda3D. When we get everyone to try out Panda3D RIGHT NOW, we will frighten away many. These will leave again that are newbs, because the manual isn’t “perfect enough” and we will loose most of the professionals because they either believe Python is not woth the time because of their skill level and the limitedness the engine still has. (compared to some comercialized game engines).

Maybe I could make some things a bit clearer… its at least the point of view I am standing for… but I am only one member of the community. ^^

IPKnightly, you DID feel insulted personally, didn’t you? :smiley:

Regards, Bigfoot29

I find IRC the most rewarding because it has an interactive part to it which makes it feel almost real. You can discuss ideas and thoughts as they pass through your mind. It also has room for friendly, off-topic comments which, at least in my oppinion, strengthens the community.

There’s also the possibility of IRC dwellers editing a wiki-based FAQ so that they can, for future reference, direct newcommers to that FAQ.
I answer a lot of Python questions on IRC so I think it’s doing some good.

A development parallel site need not discourage newcomers. It can be a great complement for those who wish to engange in proactive roles to enhance the engine.
It still is the most stable Python API for a 3D engine, but I don’t care much to spend a lot of time debugging and writing bug reports that nobody reads or cares about.

lol Seems like you didn’t even try it.
I don’t know if there are bug reports or bug fixes here that David or Josh didn’t answer… :wink:

Regards, Bigfoot29

Edit: I mean bug reports that say more than “thats crap! fix it!”

Sure I have. I even double posted in separate forums to get a higher chance of reply.

But I do understand that the developers do not have time to skim through every thread in every forum. This is why there is a necessity for a separate site with bug trackers and a specific forum that is topic-restricted so that the developers do not have to sift through tons of regular user questions.

yes community does matter and that focus helps make any project strong…

I imagine panda devs decided to keep things simple at first when panda was released instead of making a full fledged bugzilla site, but maybe things have progresss to point we need , bugzilla.org/

and landfill.bugzilla.org/

Id be happy to set things up if that is the desired route those in charge wish to take us to…I imagine this would make it easier for all to see at a glance bugs and fixed proposed without having to scour the forums ?

Forums are great for those that dont want to deal with IRC for sure so I agree this could be seen as only complimetary…


Don’t want to derail this, but I just wanted to mention that it’s pretty hard to login to the Manual wiki to do editing. I’ve been wanting to update the URL to the Chicken exporter for a while and just now I found a login link buried in some page I got when I got no search results for somethings.
I can’t see a login link in any other page, and I’m pretty sure that I used to.

EDIT: nevermind, I just saw that there is indeed a link on every page but it just looks like a lone pixel on the bottom.